Holistic Health: stronger bones, toxic coffee, depression treatment & more | Nicolai Loboda

Nicolai Loboda: https://circles-health.com

Create a healthier, happier body: http://www.broccoliguy.com⁠

Follow me for more helpful content:⁠

Nicolai Loboda (00:00)
there are studies for example, it's healthier to smoke one cigarette per month than no cigarette. I don't say start smoking cigarettes, but the thing is we need toxins, we need challenges in our body. So it's good to create, to do different new things because we need toxins so that our body learns to fight the toxins.

Tommy (00:30)
welcome to the Broccoli Guy Podcast, I'm Tommy and this show is all about creating a healthier and happier body. If you've ever experienced health issues that your doctor couldn't help you with, then it might be because many doctors have their limitations due to the traditional education system, meaning they're not taught to look at the body in a holistic way.

And this is why I'm really excited to talk to Nicolai Loboda today. He's a physiotherapist, nutritionist, lecturer in clinical psycho neuro immunology, founder of the Circles Health Clinic in Bern, Switzerland, and an author. Nico, welcome.

Nicolai Loboda (01:14)
Thanks for having me.

Tommy (01:16)
So I'm really excited to be talking to you again because it's been many years since we've seen each other. There was a talk that you gave that really fascinated me and now I said to myself, many more people around the world need to know about what you know. Can you tell us a little bit about your background?

Nicolai Loboda (01:36)
Okay. I don't know if people need to know what I know. So please just be modest. Yeah, I've started as a paramedic years ago. I worked in a helicopter and an ambulance and then I studied physiotherapy in the Netherlands. I worked as a physiotherapist for many years and I still do actually. And then I studied parts of osteopathy and nutrition and clinical psychoneuro immunology. So at the end, I always say it like this. I know a lot about...

Tommy (01:41)
Hahaha.

Nicolai Loboda (02:04)
a lot of different topics, but I'm not specialized in nothing. So I understand, I can talk to psychologists as well as to radiologists, to physiotherapists, osteopaths, whatever. I understand the language they speak, but it's not that I can do what they can do. I'm not able to do what they are able to do, but I understand what they're doing. And my idea of, yeah, the way I work and...

Maybe the background why we created this clinic in Switzerland is to integrate different faculties, different professions to work on the same patient at the same time. That's the big idea we have. We want to work with patients all together in the same moment. So not one after the other. And you go there to see the TCM practitioner, then you go to the medical doctor, then...

Half a year later, you go to see the psychologist. No, we want to see the patient. We work with the patient altogether, and then we decide in these meetings who is the next one, who does the first or the next step. And then we go to come together again, and then we do the next try. And that's the idea behind it.

You have to decide what's the next smart step, what is the next thing we need. Do we need a specialist? Do we need diagnosis? Do we need blood tests? Do we need whatever? And therefore you need somebody who understands what disciplines are necessary. It's not necessary that the person knows what to do, but to know who's important to integrate in the process.

Tommy (03:36)
sounds very unique. Is that unique in Switzerland or in Europe or how did you even come about creating this clinic?

Nicolai Loboda (03:46)
No, it's not unique. We're not the first people who think this way. We're not the only ones who do the same things. There are for sure people that do it better, with more energy, with more money, with more knowledge, with more different disciplines, for sure. But the problem is that we always still think in old patterns. So if you have a problem, the first thing you do is go to see a medical doctor. It's not a bad idea.

But the thing is, it's so complex. The problems we're facing facing in 2024 are so different from the problems we had 200 years ago. So that we need, nobody's able to do it alone. I think this is one thing that we are convinced of and we'll try to live this, that nobody is able to do it alone. So it doesn't matter how smart you are, how smart you think you are, what you studied, how good you think you are, you can't do it alone. And I think it's as well not even worth a try.

to do it alone. So if you know this, if this is like part of your DNA that you think, okay, I don't want to do it alone because I know from the beginning on, in every patient, I can't, I need a network that functions. I need a network with like short passages. I don't want to write an email, get a response two weeks later. I just open the door, I go to the other room and say, hey, can you help me? What do you think? I go to the osteopath and say, can you have a check? Is it something for you? And she said, no. Or she, yeah, this is...

Blah, blah, blah. And then otherwise I go to the traditional Chinese medicine, go back in another room and I ask. So it's short ways and it's an open discussion so we don't have hierarchies. And I think this is the thing that we try to create, no hierarchies. And you have to, I have to admit that you can't have economical ideas behind it because it's expensive. Still, nobody pays for this.

Tommy (05:32)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (05:35)
not the patients, not the health system. So everything we do in interdisciplinary work is for free. So the clinic pays it because we are convinced that this is the idea of how we should progress the health system. And yeah, not in the world. So come on, I don't say I'm a visionary. I just say this is the way I think we should work. It's functioning, but not always.

Tommy (05:49)
Yeah.
Yeah. And you touched on two very important topics here, which I would call openness, the openness to network, to work with other people and also to work interdisciplinary. Yet in my own personal journey of healing my body because of my injuries that I had, I really encountered many, many doctors who were not open, who were very absolute, who were very close minded, who told me there's no other way to heal. And.

yet I found ways to heal myself or with the help of other specialists who are open, who work interdisciplinary. Why do you think the system works like that? Why do you think there are so many doctors out there whose goal should be to help someone, but they tell someone there's no other way?

Nicolai Loboda (06:50)
This is I think it's a long discussion first first first things first. It's not a typical medical doctor problem Everybody has this so the one of one problem is that we all think we are super good in what we do because we just see The people coming back they like us They come because they said we had a good experience with him as a physiotherapist osteopathy Nutrition, whatever the people go to they come back if they're happy and that doesn't mean that they were good just means that the people were whatever, satisfied with whatever. So then you then you always see the people coming back, which liked you. So you always think, wow, I'm a good therapist, because I just see people coming back, because you forget the people that don't come back, they don't show up again after two sessions. So this is the first thing. And all the disciplines, I saw people thinking they were the greatest from medical doctors to psychologists to health practitioners in all varieties, trainers, coaches.

Whatever and this is the big issue. So it's not the medical doctors. The medical doctors have one thing on top and this is they're responsible So they don't want to mess around because if something is not working they are responsible for this and so they say I have to trust the people around me and when there are people coming and talking about like blah blah blah And I don't understand I don't do it. I'd rather just neglect it and say it's not working then go there study understand and maybe then help. So this is one major problem that other people which that don't have this responsibility they don't understand. So we have to admit that it's way more difficult to be open -minded and to test new things when you're a heart surgeon than if you're a personal trainer because nobody dies in a personal training in the gym usually.

Nobody dies in the physio on the bench. Nobody's dying. Maybe they have pain after and they go home and they don't like you, but this is the only risk you have. If you're like a medical doctor, you use the wrong medication, probably the person goes home and dies. So please stop bashing the medical doctors. But I see the openness to new things is very difficult because at the end, you do something you believe in.

Tommy (08:38)
Usually.

Nicolai Loboda (09:03)
And then maybe after a while you realize, it's not how I thought it is. And for a lot of people, and this is what I think, this is weakness sometimes, but then to say, okay, what I did the last 10 years was wrong, I have to give credit to somebody new, to other person or other disciplines in the network, or I have to admit it was wrong, so I have to change. This is very difficult for a lot of people.

Tommy (09:26)
and it's hard for some people to admit what they don't know or even that there are others that might be other solutions to a problem that they just don't know of. Absolutely.

Nicolai Loboda (09:34)
And you don't know what you don't know. And you don't know. This is this Dunning -Kruger effect. You don't even know what you don't know. So you can't even imagine the fields that what is possible when you don't know. So this is what I and this is in all the disciplines the same, not in medical, in the medical field everywhere. You don't know what you don't know. That's it. And you don't know what you don't know is the first thing. And you have to admit that you maybe know 1 % of what's possible in your own field. And if you understand, that doesn't mean that you change it.

Tommy (09:45)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.

Nicolai Loboda (10:04)
understanding just gets the booby prize. So you understand doesn't mean that you change.

Tommy (10:06)
Yeah. And that's why it's so important for the patient to take matters into their own hands and seek other advices, other opinions.

Nicolai Loboda (10:16)
Yeah, but this is what I say. I want to make the people Like they create or develop a competence to care for themselves. And this is not something I say, yeah, the system is so weak, I have to take care for myself. No, go, you have to take care for yourself anyways. Why do you expect somebody else who doesn't know you to take care for yourself and you can't do it? No, it's on you, not on somebody else. So if you have to read a book about a disease, you maybe have, didn't read the book?

Tommy (10:24)
Right.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. The moment the patient sees themselves as a victim and puts their lives into the hands of someone else, they're giving up. And you want the patient to be competent to take responsibility for their own health, right?

Nicolai Loboda (10:59)
Yes, that's what I want. It's not easy sometimes because sometimes it's part of the definition of a disease that people are not able to create or to release the energy to allow themselves to change something or to, yeah, to have like a development or a change in their lives. So they don't even leave husbands or flats or work situations even if they know that it's crap. They know that they suffer, but the system says, there's no energy left to change.

Tommy (11:09)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (11:30)
But that's what I would one part of my issues is sometimes I have created like I have a lot of chronic patients, they come and they expect you to help because they need the help. Yeah. And then you have to make and they all they come as visitors. They say, you know, somebody said you are like, please do something. And then you say, no, it's not on me. It's on you. And then they think, he's an idiot. He can't help and this is a big problem working with patients to make them compliant patients that they really want to do something.

Tommy (11:58)
Hmm. I want to jump into misconceptions because misconceptions is one topic that really attracted me to you the misconception about milk or calcium and stronger bones. Can you maybe explain what's the common misconception that people have about how to get stronger bones through calcium and how it really works.

Nicolai Loboda (12:25)
It's not so easy to answer these questions because at the end it's always a complex situation.
A bone is not just a structural element in the body a bone is a metabolic active system when you move when you sleep when you eat when you do sports exercise Whatever the bone is reacting to the necessities the body creates So for example if you move you if you go for running or you go with your patients or with your clients To do like like like an exercise or whatever like a work like a workout

The bone releases different substances to make the muscles more responsive for insulin, more reactive to insulin. So the insulin sensitivity of a muscle increases that the muscle can take more glucose to work better. And this substance, what we need to do this is released by bones. Okay?

And after the movement, after the training sessions, it gets back into the bone. So this is like a circle. And this happens all the time. So always when you move, always when you eat, something is working with the bones. This is the first thing. So it's not a stable, static system. Then we always talk about calcium, which is an important element for the bone density. And then we say, OK, if you take enough calcium, or we find food where is enough calcium, this should be like your basic nutrition during your day, especially when you have issues with the bone. Bone healing after operations, after surgeries, maybe after injuries, or for people to avoid when they're already in osteoporotic states. The problem is the first thing's first. We are in Switzerland at the moment. Now it's the second of June, I think, today. It's the third of June already, and there's no sun. So this year.

Tommy (14:04)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (14:15)
unless you have been to the Maldives for like diving or like standing at the beach, you did not produce enough vitamin D. So if there's not enough vitamin D in your body, you can't resorb calcium. So it's impossible for you to take enough calcium from out of your diet. So it doesn't matter if you eat enough, maybe you eat enough, but you don't get it into your body because you don't have enough vitamin D because vitamin D is responsible to resorb and to take.

for the intake of calcium. And then other things. You need, for example, magnesium to take the calcium, to keep the calcium liquid, like in the liquid state that you can distribute it. And then you need vitamin K2 to bring it where it should go. And you need enough zinc because you need receptors for, they produce receptors for vitamin D. So this is like, it's not an easy thing. So it's not, you give more calcium, everything is done. No, it's not.

And if you see the studies from, I saw studies from 2022, that in the Swiss society, there's nobody with enough vitamin D, nobody with enough calcium, but it's not a calcium problem in the food, it's because we don't have enough vitamin D. So first thing, we have to check the vitamin D levels. If this is not good enough, yeah, they can't resorb enough calcium. Doesn't matter if they would eat enough. So now into your question. And then we thought about different foods that we think, wow, this is a good...

It delivers a lot of calcium. For example, it's milk or cheese. So dairy products. Which is true, there is calcium in milk. There is calcium in cheese. This is why they're on every list, every recommendation from people working with bones, osteoporosis in the clinics here, they recommend cheese because there's calcium. Yeah, it's a good idea. But no movement, no vitamin D.

No, like the the gut health it's not working properly. That's the first thing and the second thing the worst thing for bones the worst things for for every like tissue state is acid So everything that brings our body into in this more acidic state is not good for our tissue That what the place where we all know it is carious in the mouth?

Tommy (16:28)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (16:28)
So this is nothing else than there's a pathogen or like, yeah, there's a pathogen, it's tryptococcus mutans, that if you have a lot of sugar in your mouth, then this releases acid and this demineralizes the teeth. So this is caries, okay? So at the end, and this happens in your body as well with the bone. So always where there's acidic state, the body gets like, the calcium gets like liberated from the bone.

Tommy (16:47)
Yes.

Nicolai Loboda (16:56)
to buffer the acidic situation. And one of the most acidic nutrients we can have is cheese. So if you want to mess up your bones, eat cheese. And we thought this is the solution for our bone problem, but it's not.

Tommy (17:14)
conventional, let's say doctors would say the body is able to regulate the acidic state or the pH balance itself. And you're saying if we eat too much cheese and we can get into what is too much later, but if we eat cheese and other acidic foods such as too much sugar, too much meat, we put the body in an acidic state and that's not good for our bones, for example. Is that correct?

Nicolai Loboda (17:23)
Yes, that's true.
That's correct. Yeah at the end it's always a matter of the amount what you eat. So it's not a problem to eat cheese. But it's the problem that you think this is one of the basic nutrients you should have every day. There's a list or there's a way to see this. It's called the so -called Pral Liste. Potential renal acid load list. So it's not about the taste on the tongue. It's about what the body does with the nutrient. And so how it's get like work with and at the end there's like

Is it either acidic or is it alkaline? So this is what comes out of nutrients, no matter what you think about it. But at the end, cheese is one of the most acidic nutrients at the end. This list you can read for every food you find. You can see if it's alkaline or is it acidic. It's not so difficult.

Tommy (18:16)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I'll call in.
if someone eats too much acidic food, what happens? How do they feel or what kind of symptoms would they experience?

Nicolai Loboda (18:45)
This is difficult to say. I don't have a typical symptom for acidic overload I'm not talking about like an intensive care relevant problem. This is different. But like a tissue problem. Usually we see tissue problems. You know, wound healing processes that are like limited, that are not working properly. Like bone healing things. When I see athletes with injuries, with like bone bruises and stuff, or maybe like fractures.

Tommy (18:57)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (19:13)
and they don't heal properly. It can be the minerals or the vitamin D, but if this is okay, could be the acidic state. And then we work with this. And sometimes it's more you do in an anamnesis. So when I'm talking with the patients and I ask the nutritionist for example, they do like a measurement and they eat proteins like crazy. A lot of athletes, they eat so much protein. It's crazy.

Tommy (19:15)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (19:39)
So they have like 200 grams of proteins a day with the food and the shakes and the stuff. And then you see, okay, and protein make acidic state too. So this is one thing that I can see while talking to the people, but I don't have a typical symptom like headaches or back pain or whatever.

Tommy (19:59)
how much would you recommend people to eat in terms of cheese, meat, fish, or even protein supplements and other acidic foods? How much would you say is the maximum tolerance of a normal human body?

Nicolai Loboda (20:17)
So first it's not that I'm against food that could cause acidic situations because we need both and we need proteins. I would never recommend people to get rid of the proteins or to just eat alkaline food. That's not right. We need both. So it's not that alkaline is good and acidic is bad.

Tommy (20:30)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (20:39)
The stomach, like the acid in the stomach has a pH from about 2, 1 .5 to maybe 3. So it's super acidic, but we need it to be super acidic. So the duodenum, the next part of the intestines, is very alkaline, it's about like pH from between 10 and 12. So we need both, because everything that we have to digest needs either alkalinic state or...

the acidic state and the same with with with the tissue we need both but it has to have a range that is physiological for us and To answer your question what is good and what is bad? So there's one maybe easy rule I can say and if it comes to Proteins we say one gram per kilogram body weight per day. So if somebody has 50 kilos 50 gram and Amino acids or 50 gram protein per day is enough. If you are sick maybe or after surgery or maybe you have other immunological problems, then you need more. If you are a power athlete, maybe you are like a football player or you are like weightlifting or whatever, you are like in a period of your season where you have to create a lot of muscle. If you have to gain muscle because you train like this, you need more. So then it can go up until 1 .5, 1 .7 grams per kilogram body weight. But then you have to think about the rest because you need the proteins. And if you know you need more proteins, you have to make sure that you have the other side of the vegetables and the greens and everything that's on the alkalinic side as well. So it's not that you can say, okay, I need protein, so I take protein, that's it. And to answer the question with the cheese, cheese is...

Like everything else, what is not like the basic nutrition, it's just something you should eat sometimes. Once, twice a week, no problem. But there are these cheese eaters, they eat cheese every day. No, but nothing hurts if you eat it sometimes, unless you have like maybe allergies or something. Nothing is a problem. So even chocolate or if you go to Burger King, I don't mind going to Burger King, but I go to Burger King once a year. But this is not a problem.

Tommy (22:35)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (22:54)
And there are studies for example, it's healthier to smoke one cigarette per month than no cigarette. I don't say start smoking cigarettes, but the thing is we need toxins, we need challenges in our body. So it's good to create, to do different new things because we need toxins so that our body learns to fight the toxins. Okay? And this is, for example, the reason why this hygiene theory that we said that people, kids growing up,

Tommy (23:14)
Hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (23:21)
In the countryside, on the farms, they have less probability for allergies because

Tommy (23:27)
which are the top alkaline foods that you would recommend have the highest effect?

Nicolai Loboda (23:33)
Yeah, everybody could check this PRAL List So there's a list. You can see everything. And I would say every like the greens, the greens is the part that is maybe the most alkaline food, alkaline food, herbs, greens, some fruits, not all the fruits. So and at the end, if I can give one recommendation of food, then it's we have to eat varieties. So if you have from everything a little bit, then we are good.

Tommy (24:03)
So.

Nicolai Loboda (24:04)
then we don't have to exclude anything. We have to include new things and this is the point. And that's a recommendation, like very clear recommendation. We talk about 150 different kinds of fruits and vegetables per month. It's not so difficult, but if you go to a normal supermarket, if you just go do your grocery shopping there, then it's difficult because there's always just the same. Almost all the year, it's almost...

Tommy (24:18)
150
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (24:32)
Always the same kind of foods fruits and vegetables. So you have to go to the market or you have to find maybe somebody a farmer to go there and Then you then it's not so difficult to get to 150 different kinds We have almost 200 ,000 kinds

Tommy (24:46)
sounds like a lot to me. Yeah, we have 200 ,000 different kinds of fruits, fruits and vegetables.

Nicolai Loboda (24:51)
Yes, we have two, yes, on the planet. So it's not so difficult. There is not a lot of variety. You don't, for sure, you don't get everything in Switzerland or where you live. If you live in North Norway, everything has to be imported. But it's on the planet, it's there. So it's not so difficult. If you can eat avocado from Peru, from whatever, and khaki from Israel, then you can find everything somewhere in Switzerland or somewhere. It's not so difficult.

Tommy (24:57)
Wow.
Yeah. So maybe just to give some perspective for the listeners, some examples of alkaline foods would be spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, and fruits, pineapple, citrus fruits like lemon. And, or do you have any other examples that you like?

Nicolai Loboda (25:37)
But this is good that you said lemon because everybody thinks lemon is an acidic food. Lemon is acidic. That's why we recommend, for example, people with... Sometimes they have problems with the stomach, with the acidic load in the stomach. Then we add lemon for when they eat, because then they help the system to work better. Not everybody, please don't try it, but some people have problems. So we add lemon because lemon is acidic.

But when it's metabolized, it's alkaline. And Coca -Cola, for example, Coca -Cola is super sweet. You think, wow, it has to be alkaline? No, but Coca -Cola has a pH from between 2 .8 to 4. So it's super, super acidic. Every bottled drink with taste that is...

Nothing fresh that you can have to hold in the fridge for like three days and then it's have to throw it away everything that the husband had was what is what I mean, but Yes, and it's the the pH has to be below four Because otherwise the bacteria will grow. Yes, and this is the point so everything you drink bottled water bottle anything It's pH below four. So it's not Good for your body so if you get rid of one thing or this

Tommy (26:36)
It has a long shelf life.
Mmhm, right. Otherwise bacteria can build.
Yeah, so everything that's good for your body is not very shelf -stable.

Nicolai Loboda (26:58)
The only thing that you should drink anyway is water. There's no doubt about that. So there's nothing else you should drink than water. That's it.

Tommy (27:07)
What about... this reminds me of maybe tea.

Nicolai Loboda (27:10)
Maybe tea, maybe tea without unsweetened tea. Unsweetened tea is okay, and espresso is okay. You can have an espresso sometimes if you don't have serious liver problems or stress problems. No problem to have an espresso. One or two, not more.

Tommy (27:24)
What about coffee in general? One or two is coffee acidic or is it very acidic? No.

Nicolai Loboda (27:28)
No problem.

No, it's not very acidic. And it's like the thing is coffee like one to two, it depends on the study you read, but between one and three coffees per day reduce the colon cancer risk of about 60%. So it's not so bad. Yeah. But you always have to think about like, don't drink it in the morning the first thing you do. This is bad. So when you wake up in the morning and you drink coffee, it's not good for your system.

You have to drink like good, yeah, there's some various things. And the first thing is it pushes, it rises up the cortisol levels in your system. So it activates the stress axis. It's not suitable to do this. So don't drink it too early. You should drink organic coffee. So like at least the qualities should be good. And you don't need water beside, you can have water, but it's not that we...

Tommy (28:00)
Why is it bad?

Nicolai Loboda (28:26)
dehydrate the body with coffee. That was a myth. That is wrong. That's not happening. The only people they shouldn't drink coffee are people with high blood pressure when they see that they react to coffee and people with liver problems. So for example, if you drink a coffee and you still have the taste of the coffee in your mouth for an hour or two, you have a problem with an enzyme that's usually there to convert coffee.

Tommy (28:45)
Yeah.

Nicolai Loboda (28:52)
And if you can't do this, you will feel this. And these are the people that say coffee, wow, when I drink coffee after five o 'clock, I can't sleep. They have a problem with this enzyme. It's not bad, but it's like, if you know this, don't do it. Okay, and if you drink, and this is a funny thing. Yeah, it could be genetic disposition, could be a lack of enzyme, could be polymorphism, could be that the liver doesn't work properly for other reasons. But the funny thing is if you drink coffee and milk,

Tommy (29:05)
So it's a genetic disposition.

Nicolai Loboda (29:19)
So cappuccino for example, I don't recommend cappuccino, I love cappuccino, I drink cappuccino, but there are enzymes in the milk that help convert caffeine. So this is why for people with issues with caffeine, drinking coffee with milk, it's better for them if you think about the caffeine. Because like I said, there are enzymes in the milk that help to work with the caffeine. That's funny. But no sugar.

That's the first thing. No sugar. But I drink, yeah. I think this is, when you ask me to talk about misconceptions, there's so many bad things we think that are good for us. But one thing is decaffeinated, like, how do you say it in English? Decaffeinated coffee, yeah. Like to get the coffee out of the bean, you need,

Tommy (29:49)
sugar. What about decaf?
decaffeinated coffee.

Nicolai Loboda (30:17)
chemical that's called Dichloromethane and that gets the the caffeine out of the bean so you can have a coffee with a proper taste without coffee. That might be okay for the taste but the chemical usually is used to, that's what I said, it's used to... So I don't know how to explain... So when something is painted...
to dissolve the paint, for example. Therefore, you need this. So this is a toxin. For me, it doesn't make any sense to drink tea, coffee, or coffee. It's just a toxin, so don't do it.

Tommy (30:43)
Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so it's.
Mm -hmm.
So if you drink decaf coffee, you drink toxins, you drink chemicals that are definitely not good for you.

Nicolai Loboda (31:03)
Yes, yes. So then I would prefer coffee. This is the same with diet Coke. So Coke is something you can have like once a year, five times a year, for example, you have to sit in the sun with ice and lemon and you think, wow, this is like a luxury product. No problem. But if I drink a Coca -Cola, I would prefer to drink a proper Coke instead of a diet Coke because the chemicals they put in the diet Coke.

are so bad. And with aspartame, aspartame is so bad. It's carcinogenic, for example. It's like, and we, we, we, we, we, the biggest issue is that we don't really know, like we expected the blood sugar to go down when we drink diet coke. Okay. So the people are like, they feel this reward because of the sweeten of the tongue, but we don't have the, the

Tommy (31:33)
Are you talking about Aspartame?

Yes.

Nicolai Loboda (31:58)
There's the spikes in blood sugar and the insulin goes down. This is what Health would be a health benefit, but we see that it's the other way around So the blood sugar goes up and we don't know why This is this they don't know why and the thing is that at the end I think there's an idea behind it because if we taste sugar or tongue the brain expects energy to come in

Tommy (32:08)
Hmm. We don't know why.

Nicolai Loboda (32:21)
And when the brain says, hey, usually I get 20 % of everything you eat and you drink, where's my stuff? There's no energy left. So where's my stuff? And then what we see is that patients that have more consumption of diet products, they eat more calories. So it goes up the same way. And this is what we see. So this is the same. If I drink a Coca -Cola, I drink a proper Coca -Cola. I know sugar is bad.

Tommy (32:28)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
with normal sugar.

Nicolai Loboda (32:51)
Yeah, with normal sugar, sugar is bad, but it's way better than all this other crap that they put in there.

Tommy (32:57)
Yeah, and since aspartame got a very bad rep in the last few years, many healthy drinks or even supplements have diverted to sucralose. What's your take on sucralose?

Nicolai Loboda (33:01)
Thank you.
Yeah, it's like at the end, it's always the same. But this is a political discussion, for example. I can't open this discussion now, but you have to read about stevia and Coca -Cola. This is really funny. I can't say more because I don't know exactly the background of it. But I know that Coca -Cola is one of the reasons, like the company is one of the reasons why we can't import stevia and we can't use the stevia leaves in Europe.

Tommy (33:35)
Wow.

Nicolai Loboda (33:36)
But this is more like a tip. That's why I don't want to talk about political backgrounds. You know, this is the tip of the iceberg. And this is always like, at the end, it's always a political thing. So we have so many misconceptions or ideas, like, for example, lemon. You know, we don't have enough lemons on this planet to make everything taste like lemon what tastes like lemon. So everything is like with lemon. So we don't have enough lemon. And it's too expensive. You can't have candy with true organic lemon. They...

Tommy (33:41)
Yeah, it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Nicolai Loboda (34:05)
they created a mushroom that has a lemon taste. So we use this mushroom to give lemon taste to all the things we use, to all the products we eat. And the same is vanilla. Vanilla is like, what is an waste product? It's a waste product in the production of paper. So there's a whole science what we can make out of rubbish. So they take the rubbish.

Tommy (34:10)
Hmm.
yep.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (34:33)
and they test, okay, when we combine these two and we leave them for two weeks in a whatever, and then there comes a taste out of it, or whatever. So there's a whole science behind what we can make out of rubbish. It's smart because we have a lot of problems with rubbish, but we use this for our food. It's not so smart, in my opinion.

Tommy (34:52)
Yeah, it's incredible how little people know about how food works and how much political agenda is behind things such as the food pyramid and food prices.

Nicolai Loboda (35:03)
Yeah, but this is, if you want to read about this, there's one really good book I like. It's from Michael Pollan, he's a journalist usually, and he worked a lot on this nutrition topic. And he wrote a book, it's called In the Defense of Food, or in German, it's called Omnivore und Dilemma. And he writes about the supply chains and about the political aspects behind nutrition. And he talks about soy, for example. This is so interesting, soy and corn.

And you know why what we first used soy for when we started using soy? Because soy is not, it's a bean we would never ever, ever, ever eat soy in the natural form. So the Asians, they ferment it. They can change the structures and then they eat it. It's not, it's way better. It's not perfect, but it's way better. But soy was usually at the beginning produced because of the oil.

Tommy (35:53)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (35:58)
So the seed oil is the oil was good because maybe you, I don't know how old you are, but I remember that everybody was cooking with soy oil in the 70s and 80s. Everybody was cooking in cold kitchen, warm kitchen with soy oil or with corn oil. And from the protein structure of soy is so stable, so hard that they use this protein structure to build furniture. So this is like.

Tommy (35:59)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (36:23)
one main component in the production of furniture and the oil. And then they found out, okay, it's way better, way cheaper, way more effective to use corn than soy. But then they had the farms, the farmers working with soy. So what do they do? They say, okay, we can't let them down. We can't say, okay, no, fuck it. No, it's your problem. They said, okay, we have to modify the bean that we can use it for other things.

Tommy (36:27)
Wow.

Nicolai Loboda (36:50)
And that's where it started that we modified the soy to make it like eatable for animals. So soy and corn are like the main two things animals eat. It's a good idea because the protein is okay, but we can't digest it properly. You know this. Now everybody gets bloated when they eat beans, not just soy. But soy was not meant...

Tommy (37:10)
Yes.
Or just popcorn.

Nicolai Loboda (37:16)
Yeah, so the soy was not meant to be eaten by human beings, but we modified it so long until we can eat it. So now this is the base of the nutrition for vegetarians and for vegans, which is the worst.

Tommy (37:20)
Yeah.
or even for gluten -free people, people who want to eat gluten -free, because now you see instead of adding wheat, they just add corn to every gluten -free snack that's out there.

Nicolai Loboda (37:43)
Yeah, this is maybe, this is the thing, the hype behind oat is the same because oat is usually when it's produced properly, it's gluten free. This is why there is a hype behind oat, behind soy. But this is the other thing. You know what the worst nutrient is for vegans or vegetarians? What do they eat? Where do they get their proteins from?

Tommy (38:12)
usually from beans.

Nicolai Loboda (38:13)
for beans, so soy, so they eat beans and stuff. And the newest thing, it's not so new, but the newest thing is seitan, right? You heard about seitan. Seitan is protein for vegans and vegetarians. You know what seitan is?

Tommy (38:22)
Right. Yes.
That's soy protein, right? Sorry, it's wheat protein, yes.

Nicolai Loboda (38:30)
No, it's wheat protein. So, and now you can tell me what the worst thing in wheat is. What do you think is the worst? What do you think?

Tommy (38:39)
Well, I would assume it's gluten.

Nicolai Loboda (38:43)
Yes, and Zaitan is isolated gluten. So if you take the worst from wheat, this is gluten, so it's a protein structure, you take it out, and then you give it to the poor vegetarians and the vegans as the best protein source. It's so bad. It's so bad. And this is so sad that it's like this. And people don't know.

Tommy (38:46)
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (39:06)
If you don't have sensitivity, you can eat gluten sometimes. Not every day, three times, but sometimes. But how can you say, I know it's so bad because it's so reactive with the immune system. It activates a molecule called zonolene. So to open up the barriers, so the leaky gut syndrome comes, one part is zonolene. So it's activated via gluten.

of one part of gluten is gliadin. So if you know this, how can you isolate this, take it out and use this as the next thing that we should offer other people to eat? So this is the worst.

Tommy (39:44)
And I assume it also comes down to balance. If someone eats Seitan once or twice per month, that's probably okay, but there are a lot of...

Nicolai Loboda (39:52)
If you're not sensitive, everything is okay. No problem. I think you can have a glass of alcohol. It's not so bad to have a glass of red wine, but I'm not talking about five vodka red bulls every day or about a whole 10 beers. I know people, they drink 10 to 15 beers per day. For them, it's normal. But to have a beer, if you're not sensitive on alcohol, if you don't have a problem, if you don't have to drive, if you don't have to work, why not? I don't care. I don't care.

Tommy (40:18)
Yes. Yeah.

Nicolai Loboda (40:20)
But what you said, it's the amount that makes the problem, the dose that makes the problem.

Tommy (40:25)
I once worked with someone, he was also a German guy, he was very tall but also very big, and I asked him what he eats and drinks every day. He was like, well, he eats kind of healthy and drinks his orange juice every day. I was like, how much orange juice do you drink? He says, one liter. I was like, one liter of orange juice every day. So it's really mind blowing to me what some people think is normal to them to consume in...
in massive quantities.

Nicolai Loboda (40:55)
Everything is normal for everybody. Everything you do frequently is normal for you.

Tommy (40:58)
Yes. Now, I want to be aware of your time and respect your time. Just maybe two more little things that I think you could really contribute on, which is Omega 3. What do you think about Omega 3 as a supplement?

Nicolai Loboda (41:16)
The thing is, the omega -3 discussion is not new, but it's very important, and maybe I should start from the beginning, because there's always discussions about if it's necessary or not, how much is necessary, and where do I get it from. The first thing is, about 30 % of the brain mass is DHA, so it's one of the omega Omega-3 fatty acids.

So 30%. 50 % of what the synapses in the brain are made of are omega -3. So it's like this is the necessary ingredient or necessary substance in our body. And we can't take this away. We know this, so it's very important. And the thing is, we talk about maybe how much you need and where you get it from, but there are a lot of good studies.

this is by the way, very important to understand, the DHA for the kid is important to develop the brain. This is the most important thing in the development of a fetus. Okay, so the brain has to be perfect. So this is why the baby gets or takes the perfect amount of DHA that it needs from the mother. And if the mother doesn't eat enough, she will take it from her own brain, from her own...

Tommy (42:23)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (42:38)
central nervous system. And this is what we see. This is the main reason for post -partal depression. For example, the lack of DHA in the mother. So it's a nutrition problem. So we take the blood, we measure the blood, and we take the, it's called the index of fatty acids, and we see how is the level of omega -3 fatty acids. And it should be 11%. So in all the fatty acids in the blood of a newborn,

Tommy (42:44)
Hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (43:06)
the DHA level or the omega -3, sorry, the omega -3 level should be 11%. So this is perfect. Then the brain can develop properly. The level we measure in humans, that's the study from Germany, it's between 3 .9 and 5%. So it's not at all where it should be. Okay, and this is one reason for neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's or...
Motypis sclerosis or whatever and even ADHD or autism are related to a lack of Omega -3. It's never just this to be honest. It's never just one thing, but it's one part of it. So we have to admit that Omega -3 is an important nutrient. If we see how our brain develops, the essential substances beside iodine and selenium and vitamin A and D are Omega -3 fatty acids, so we need it. So this is the first thing. The second thing I have to say when we see our metabolism our body is able to produce everything itself. Okay, so the base is always glucose and from glucose we make lactate and from lactate all the athletes all the trainers they think it's dead then it's done. No, in this metabolic pathway

From lactate we go on and we create ATP, we create different other things, for example nucleotides. So every, the basic elements of the DNA is produced in this metabolic pathway. The second thing is all the amino acids are produced in this pathway, except the essential ones. That's why they're called essential ones, because we can't produce it ourselves. And the same with the fatty acids. So in the...

You call it the anaerobic metabolism, right? Okay. We produce nucleotides, all the essential amino acids and all fatty acids in this metabolic pathway, except omega -3. Our body is not capable of producing omega -3. So by knowing that we can't produce it and by knowing that we need it, what else, what left?

Tommy (45:00)
Right.

Nicolai Loboda (45:24)
What's left is that we have to eat it. And the best source of omega -3 fatty acids is fish or shellfish. That's it. First thing, wait, wait, wait, wait one second. One thing for you maybe, there's no anaerobic metabolism in the body. So you learned aerobic and anaerobic, right? This doesn't work anymore. So we don't have an anaerobic, there's just one type of cells in our body that's anaerobic.

Tommy (45:28)
So.
Mm -hmm. Or shellfish. And if you want to supplement it, sorry.
Right.

Nicolai Loboda (45:53)
and these are erythrocytes. the red blood cells, which transport oxygen. This is the only cell in our body that's working 100 % anaerobic. And anaerobic means no mitochondria. So this is the only cell in the body where you can't find mitochondria. In all the other cells in the body, you find mitochondria. And just to make...

Tommy (45:56)
Right.

Nicolai Loboda (46:16)
The sheer amount of mitochondria is so crazy. What do you think a cardiomyocyte like one heart cell how many microcon mitochondria are in the heart cell? It said 3 ,000 3 ,000 mitochondria in one heart. Yes, and in the neuron in the brain 2 million It's so crazy. So then it's getting important movement cold heat and high -intensity interval trainings breathing exercises fasting

Tommy (46:27)
3 ,000.
Wow.

Nicolai Loboda (46:44)
These are all mitochondria genesis. It's so important to understand this. Okay, your question, supplements. I don't mind eating fish. But I understand when people say, I don't want to eat fish because it's not sustainable. The way we do it, it's really bad. Or I just don't like it. It's okay. I don't want to eat shellfish. Okay, don't do it. And if you then say, I don't want to take a supplement made out of fish, because this would be the same problem.
then take it from algae, no problem, because we have a lot of big companies, they produce omega -3 fatty acids made out of algae, because the fish, they get the omega -3 fatty acid from algae as well. So I don't mind.

Tommy (47:23)
How much fish would be enough per week so that one wouldn't need to supplement it?

Nicolai Loboda (47:30)
This is difficult because at the end we say you need about 2 grams omega -3 fatty acids per day. So fish has about 1%, 1 to 2 % omega -3. So if 100 grams fish, you have 1 gram omega -3, or maybe 2. So 100 gram fish per day, but this is a lot. You can't eat that much. But maybe you have like two times a week 200 grams, then you have, then it's OK. It's not so bad. Then it's OK. And if you supplement it, because you have like a...

Immunological problems for example, or you have like brain fog problems, or you have like neurodegenerative problems Then you have to supplement it and then you can take it from algae and then you take two to three grams People think they take how do you call line? What is line?

Tommy (48:16)
flaxseed oil.

Nicolai Loboda (48:17)
Yeah, flax seed oil Because they think, okay, we can make omega 3 out of it. But this is not true. Main some...

Tommy (48:24)
Hmm. So you're saying people who take flaxseed oil, that's just not working at all.

Nicolai Loboda (48:30)
For as a as a as a to support the omega yes. Yes. This is not an omega -3 source for male people. So for for men the the the the production from flaxseed oil to omega -3 zero percent We can't do it women can do it a bit better because it's like a like a program that is in women when they're pregnant to get the kid the omega -3 fatty acid they need and

Tommy (48:32)
as an Omega -3 supplement.

Nicolai Loboda (48:57)
they can make about like between 1 .25 to maybe 1 .25 to 0 .75 % out of the flaxseed oil. So if you have 100 milliliters of flaxseed oil, you get like half a gram of omega -3. So if you say we need three grams per day, you would have to drink 600 milliliters of flaxseed oil. So it can't be a source.

Tommy (49:10)
Wow.

Nicolai Loboda (49:26)
It's not bad because the oil is okay, the fat structure is okay, but it's not meant to be a good source for oil.

Tommy (49:27)
That's crazy.
Okay. So a vegan source or a good alternative would be algae. Yeah.

Nicolai Loboda (49:36)
Perfect, perfect. Why not? It's a good idea. And I think this is sustainable. When they make it properly, when they produce it properly, it's sustainable. Why not? Because we can produce this poof in huge amounts because they grow fast. It's okay. It's processed, but everything we can take in captions more or less, everything is processed.

Tommy (49:48)
Yeah, it grows like crazy.
I want to touch on the last topic which you already mentioned briefly which is depression. You mentioned postpartum depression and I really didn't know why women have postpartum depression or can get that and this is really mind -blowing to me but makes so much sense. Can you talk a little bit more about depression in general and how that may be connected to the colon?

Nicolai Loboda (50:19)
Okay. First we have to say there's not one kind of depression. We have four to six different types of depression. So it can be a genetic aspect. So maybe that there's a receptor that doesn't work, for example, or there's something, a lack of the production of a certain neurotransmitter, which is serotonin in this case. But there are often connections between movement, the microbiome,

and the food and the barriers. Maybe I can try to make this quick. Like first thing, the serotonin is produced, the most amount of serotonin is produced in the gut itself. So we have...

Tommy (51:03)
And for clarification, serotonin is the hormone that makes one feel happy, makes one feel good. Is that correct?

Nicolai Loboda (51:10)
It's not a hormone, it's a neurotransmitter. Yeah, neurotransmitter, but like I said, the main jobs for serotonin are pain regulation, digestion, so the movement of the bowel, and sleep. So serotonin is the basic substance for melatonin, so...

Tommy (51:13)
is our renewal transmitter.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (51:35)
when it's getting dark outside, when the blue light gets limited, our body produces out of serotonin, produces melatonin, and this is the neurotransmitter that makes us fall asleep. So we need it. That's, by the way, made of tryptophan. So this is one of the amino acids. So we need this. And this is produced in the gut. So when there's a gut problem, it could be that we don't produce enough serotonin, for example.

Tommy (51:48)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (52:01)
This is why I see a lot of patients that come with pain, digestion problems and sleep disorders. So we think they have three different problems, but it's all linked in serotonin, for example. So we have to organize, we have to clear the gut problem, and then the sleep problem gets better, and then the pain gets better, because serotonin is important to limit and to regulate the pain information. So this is what... That depends on the problem.

Tommy (52:27)
and how do you clear the gut problem?

Nicolai Loboda (52:30)
So there are so many different things. So the pH, we talked about the acidic state of the alkaline situation in the body, in the gut is very important because every part of the gut has its own specific milieu, has its own specific pH level. So the pH level is responsible for the types of bacteria living in this area. So there's an area that's important, for example, to produce an enzyme.

to activate hormones. For example, they are bacteria, they are important to activate enzymes, to produce enzymes that activate our hormones. And they need a specific milieu, specific atmosphere, let's say like this, to be able to work properly, to grow and to work. And if this changes, the bacterial structure changes and the other bacteria come in, they...

what shouldn't be there and the bacteria we need, they are not there. So at the end, the milieu is very important. Every part of the intestine has a specific pH level. So we need to check this. Then the barriers. So we have bacteria, we have the milieu, and we have the barriers. So we have to see how is the protein structured, because usually the gut barrier is made of...

of cells, they are made of proteins and of fats. So we need to feed them the right tools to produce a new cell. So this is food. And then we have to get rid of the toxins. I told you about sonolene, for example, about gluten, what does to our barriers. But there are so many things, the pill, like the contraceptive pill, all the toxins, heavy metals, smoke, alcohol.

Tommy (54:10)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (54:16)
and saponin from soy, and lectins from various different vegetables. Yeah, we have no, this no, no, no, this is different. But we have so many different things in food that could harm our barrier. But it's not bad because this is what happens though the barrier is there to be like, you know, it has to work, but the barrier has to be closed if the barrier is not, it's a barrier is open. We have the toxins, bacteria, parts of bacteria.

Tommy (54:22)
like chili or eggplant.

Nicolai Loboda (54:44)
have access to our body and then they activate our immune system on the body side because as long as it's in the gut, it's not a problem for us. But as soon as it gets through the barrier, it activates our immune system. Our immune system gives the information to the brain and says, hey, we have a problem in the gut. I have to activate the immune system because we have contact with bacteria. By the way, this is called endotoxemia. And if I have this, the brain gets activated and the brain gets said, hey, listen.

Tommy (54:51)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (55:12)
we have a problem. Okay, and then the brain protects itself and it starts closing the blood brain barrier. And then the information is less, I can't get through and the energy production is not as good as before because the brain says, hey, I want to resolve the problem in the periphery first. And then we open up again and we can go on. This is for example, what we see when people are dipping after lunch.

Tommy (55:37)
Hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (55:41)
when you fall asleep after lunch, this is one part of it's called postprandial immune response. And when you go on, you have this sometimes not a problem, but if you have this like, people have it every day for like years. If you go on and the brain doesn't allow the use of energy, it's called non permissive brain disorder. So the brain doesn't allow the use of energy.

Tommy (55:41)
Mm -hmm.
Do you search?

Nicolai Loboda (56:08)
That's what we talked at the beginning. And when you go on like this, this is the start for the development of depression. So this is the link between the gut and the brain, and then omega -3 fatty acids, and the lack of minerals, and so on and so on. It's not just one thing.

Tommy (56:09)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm. So.
And what are simple things that one with depression can do without coming to you first?

Nicolai Loboda (56:33)
Yeah, first you have to see if this is, for example, something you suffer. So you have depression and you have intestinal problems and you have sleep disorders and you have pain problems. And when this is together, then we have to take care of the serotonin system. Because at the end, taking antidepressants is not such a bad idea because we have to help the patients. I'm never against medication. I'm always for...

Tommy (56:55)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (57:00)
We have to find the right moment to use it or maybe because this is not the right therapy because if you have an intestinal problem and you give the people antidepressant, maybe they help, could be, why not? But they still have the problem. They still have the gut problems. They still have the lack of serotonin production. So why don't we try to activate our own systems? And this could be like whatever you made it with liver. Maybe you have to, we have to.

Tommy (57:09)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (57:27)
Organized or they have to work with it with a gut. Maybe you have to work with the pancreas Maybe you have to work with the brain. So for that for the people with depression start checking out your minerals Start seeing if you have enough vitamin D start checking your omega -3 sources Get rid of the of the toxins work with your liver and clear the intestine Look that you can close the barrier is nothing that you can say it's not easy I can't say take one supplement and that's it. No, it's a process. It's a program

But at the end you can work on this. It's not that you stay there and you take the antipressants. Then this is the life. No. And for these people, psychology doesn't work. It doesn't help at all. But they go to a psychologist as well. But some people get depressions because of a trauma. They need help. And they don't need it like somebody who works with their intestines.

Tommy (58:04)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicolai Loboda (58:23)
You know what I mean? So this is important. So my problem is that we always, when we come back to the network discussion, a psychologist will always try to solve every problem of every patient with psychology. It's not wrong. It's just maybe in this moment, not the right tool for the patient's problem. But he doesn't know because they're sad, they come, they're not motivated, whatever the symptoms are, they come to see the psychologist. Every nutritionist do the same. He does, he tried.

tries to resolve every problem for the patient with nutrition. But it's not right. It doesn't help. The same with everybody.

Tommy (58:58)
Yeah. So someone, someone who suffered trauma either through abuse or something else for that, it makes sense to see a psychologist or a psychotherapist. And for other people, it might make sense to go to people like you to check the whole body and see if we can heal through food and detoxification and other methods.

Nicolai Loboda (59:04)
Whatever.
Yeah, but there's always different levels. I say that we call it five levels of health. It's movement, it's nutrition, it's regeneration, it's emotions, and it's called intellectual satisfaction. So it's cognition. And it depends where the problem is.
I have people that come here, for psychoanalysis for 10 years, twice a week. And they still have the same problems. And then you have to maybe try something new. And that's what I say. I don't say that I know better. Not at all. But I say, okay, I see sometimes if there's a patient, I think, okay, you had 25 different therapists with your back pain.

Osteopaths chiropractors physiotherapists and all the other alternative things you work on your body so well for 15 years 25 30 different and operate and surgeries and medication you did everything on the physiological level But maybe there's something else Maybe you should try something else and then they go to like a yoga retreat and they talk to somebody who does Hypnosis and they have one after one with the pain is 80 % better

Tommy (1:00:30)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nicolai Loboda (1:00:33)
And that's what I say. So if you have like a structural problem, your problem is at home, during work, in holidays, the same. But I have people that come with headache, they go to holidays, they leave Switzerland, no headaches, they arrive at the airport, headache comes back. This is not a physiological problem. And this is what a good therapist should do at the beginning, to find if he's the right person. When people come to see me, the first session is never about I'm your therapist.

The first thing is I want to see if I'm the one who can help or if you are the one I want to work with because I have a lot of patients that say, I don't want to work with you because I know that I can't help or the way it's not matching, I don't know. So this is what I want. You have to be open to say no as therapists if we can't and the people have to understand that they are responsible for their own health.

Tommy (1:01:25)
a very good closing point, Nico. Thanks so much for all the insights. I also learned a lot during this talk. Every time I meet you, I learn so much from you. It's amazing. And I'm very glad that we had this opportunity to talk to each other. Thanks for sharing your insights. I will link to your clinic and for all the listeners and watchers, if you liked what you heard and saw, just subscribe and hit the like button for more content like this.

Nicolai Loboda (1:01:27)
Ha ha.
Yeah, it's amazing.

Tommy (1:01:54)
Nico, once again, thank you so much

Transcript:⁠